Tag: Interviews

WHM’s Jeremy Spiller Interviews Christer Holloman

Before we start, how did you come to write your book? What made you decide to write it and what was the process of actually putting it all together? Yeah, I used to work for a company calledthe Digital Property Group and it's that company that runs Prime Location, Find a Property and Globrix, and halfway through my time there they say, 'Chris youhave a Twitter account you blog a little bit, you must know lotsabout social media can you help us review and revise and create a social mediastrategy for us?' I had to admit that I don't know thatmuch about social media, this is two years ago I said I don't know that much about social media but I wanted to rise to the challenge so I started doing a lot of research,running around looking for books and reading up on blogs, to really find out what's best practice inthe space right now.

And the problem that I kinda kept comingacross is that a lot of the stuff was too elementary it was to theoretical, it was about how social media's gonna change your business or how you create a Twitter account.

Things I kindaalready new or things I couldn't really apply or use in my business or that wouldn't translate well into a strategy as such.

So I realized there is a gap in the market, you know something, a resource targeting professionals thatkinda no social media people that get that social media is big and it's growing and, you know, we don't need to be told thatagain, but we wanna build on what we currently are doing.

How do we take it to the nextlevel? So, that's really the starting point ofwhere I identified the need for something to to provide professionals like myself inthat situation to kinda move forward really.

And you gotta lot of input from otherpeople as well yeah, it's well it's all other people apart from the end and stuff, but, how did that come about that must bequite difficult to manage? With a lot of those people it's a global enterprise as it were.

Because I mean another thing I cameacross having reviewed so much social media literature, one of the things that annoyed me a lot was that a lot of books are written by North Americans.

No offence to NorthAmerica, it's a great place to go to on holiday, et cetera, and a greatplace to work, et cetera, but, it kinda skewed the view of the world that,obviously living in Europe, working for a British company, they were other references, and otherexamples, and case studies that I think would be more relevant for me.

So I wanted to, kind of, bring social media over to Europe as such, and another thing that annoyed mewas a lot of them written by one of two people, kinda, claiming to be social media experts, and I'm no social media expert, and in the same sense that I didn'twanna create another book that pretended to be from one person, one person that knowseverything and addressing the fact that there's a lot ofNorth American focus, I decided to use collaborators, have people contribute chapters to thebook to bring that European perspective back, to recognizethat there's not one person to can sit on everything by in fact we all have differentpoints of view, and bringing that together would be a farmore interesting from a a reader's point of view then againbeing repeating what I so failing elsewhere.

Sothat's really kinda the reason behind it.

How did you decide what topics each person each contributorwas going to be writing about and was it a case of them suggesting the topic, or was it acase if you, sort of, discussing what topics that you wanted to cover and then sort of allocating them out? So how it happened I approached one ofmy contacts, and I said you know Eb you're really good as social media, you know what you're talking about, you're very pragmatic, if I did a project like this would youconsider to be a part of it? And he said yes straight away, he thought it was a brilliant concept, and I said who else would you liketo see collaborating on this book? I mean who would you turn to for inspiration or for, who doyou learn from basically, and he kinda gave me some names, and I approached them and I said the same thing as I said to him, would you like to work on this project? Some people said yes and those that said yes I asked them to refer their bestcontacts and that's kinda quite organically how the group of collaborators came together.

And I said to all of them you know what arethe areas that interests you the most and this is the audience, this is their age bracket, this is their educationalbackground, this is what they do for a living, and they all want to take it to thenext stage.

They all get social media they want want to progress this now.

And I said on the basis of that andand you being a recognized professional in your space, what would you be most comfortabletalking about? And they proposed suggestions, an as I got these headlinestogether I sorta started mixing and matching to see which ones would fit the best together,and kinda created the outline out of that.

Looking at the contributors of the book,many of them have a very strong PR background, how does PR and social media work together? In other words, how does it both overlap and how is it different? Yeah, I think the PR industry, sort of, doesn't really know what to do with social media.

Traditionally, social media has been owned by the marketing department and because it's a conversation with consumers, PR agencies say that they should be involved because in the same way they help you get covered on national newspapers, we can help you get coverage or get your message amplified through social channels.

So that's sort of the pitch the PR companies did in beginning, especially.

That this is just another channel of PR.

And then you had specialized social media agencies popping up, which was sort of challenging PR companies, saying you're working with a PR company that's good at getting you coverage in a national printed newspaper, or in a national TV station, or something, but they are not digital natives, they don't get this new media, they don't understand that audience that operates in this space or exists in this space, you should therefore trust us.

So, because social media was considered to be a side, or a separated isolated type of activity, it was quite easy for marketing people to say you know what we're going to hire this social media agency to do our PR in social media channels.

So the challenge that PR companies now have been facing for awhile is that how did they create a credible social media proposition within the PR context, because they still argue that they are the best people suited to manage a conversation with the audience.

This is what they've been doing for decades, that's what they will continue doing and social media is just a new flavour.

So some agencies have decided to acquire an existing did it for business a digital agency a PR agency am somecompanies decided to at take a couple their employees and putthem in a separate part of the office and call that a social media tossed four so whatever the the kindaknowledge and expert haha but something I'm and others have kinda every input giventhem a brand name try to launch in a separate business still within that within the the PR companies walls Ithink that's the challenge how to use a traditional PR company convince yourcustomers that you are suitable to communicatewith his new audience or and over this new channelsand how to use a PR company decide Dubai and other existing socially a PRcompany do you create something in turn it to keep your brand to give it a brand-newidentity kinda separate I make a clay and mice thecustomers that this is actually a separate part about I'm ourcompany and they have a special skill set and never you can trust andyou don't have to go to this extent a company to invest in main challenges it's clearthat when I've seen I'm spoke two companiesthere are that often they work in silos you knowyou've got marketing here and you got PR there you got financenickel production and so long what are your thoughts on how that'sgoing to change how companies should now integrate all these functions in termsof social media activity what sort of things also step shouldcompanies take in changing the way they work succumbgoing back to committee previous question you know what other problemsappear companies facing yeah they've been managing conversations forfor for the company for a longer time but socially is not just about managingconversation social media is a way of interacting with our star ofinteracting with our clients or suppliers it's the way I have have empowering ourconsumers is about reviews is about communities is aboutthe process as you talk about and realistically can a PR company dolove a can we outsource a component to onecompany or do we need to as a business recognizethat socially is this is something that needs to go across the business and yeah how do you dress that I thinklooking from a company point-of-view anyways you I mean lotta Mike clients a lot ofpeople that I work with marketing people and i know i speak a marketingconferences et cetera and and when I tell them is thatalthough social media has traditionally been owned by SCE by marketing and that contra main to bethe case going forward in you you as a marketing person needs toempower the rescue business to get behind this a rather than tryingto think about is losing power losing that ownership think I'm is empower yourbusiness and being a thought leader and being the ambassador and and a name there also see me as opposedto a and someone Godinho trying to protect your your interest so for companies sheddingsome sort of Center for Excellence or sums orworkgroup that pulls and not just marketing resources headed up by by yourself but also peoplethat represent customer service people represent pro-development or hey char even youknow how can hate char leverage social media and help them to understand about bestpractices in different verticals and show them how you been using Twitter sothey can see how they can replicate that for for their objectives within theirbusiness areas so back to your question socially a definite needs to filterthrough the entire organization marketing has a has a good chance to bethe people kinda advocating that ohneighboring that have and then again how does what relevanceas a PR company have been that big scheme I'm not so sure I think PR isgood for managing maybe customer relationships but I don'tthink they can own successfully manage the whole integrated holistic view socially and I like to seecompanies embracing going forward so as we know one of the key elements golfsocial media marketing is content you need really good content many companies a quite far down theroute that they they're doing okay but a lot of companies and brands awstarting out and how to they approach this aspect tocontent house how can they create content that'sgoing to attract attention is going to engage people what if they start doing well I thinkyou need to give you gas miss something to talk about I mean what is valuablethat you said on going to ASIST you have in your business and tens of people that work for you maybeor the products that you provided services you provide what can you how can you comevirtualized how can you cut turn that into a talking point I was having a conversation with afriend about Foxtons foxes are london-based to stay agent andwhen I looked this is to be honest a while ago says probably changehopefully for their sake I hope is changed didn't have a structured approach tosocial media back in this time I did of a search onFacebook and youths or more groups created by upset and disappointed customers andprospective tenants then use all messages from the actualcorporation itself so i think thats the he is looking atthat time sideline actually mean if if you're freeto engage in a storage unit because you think people will be back stabbingyou're talking a product down guess what's happening anyways alreadyso you can choose to gauge or you can choose to ignore but presleya seems to make more sense in case it's just that let this or have upset mobile customers have free reignon social media so so I was talking to a friend aboutwhether no foxes will be suitable for social because tradition is staying as have a badreputation there you know loud and noisy and the tollway fossthink I run over you always get a bad deal kinda thing I think enough so theybelieve voted the worst most least appreciated trade in the UK orsomething so they have a bad reputation to startwe can you make folks is a good social media proposition and he said itmight be difficult to kinda crap coolness around being a stage in 0 or engaging with that stage in such butwhat about their branded car so they have a half liter OHV Mini Coopers branded really fun can Ithink every quarter every six months it seems to chain up running so maybe you can get away with creatinga Facebook page about the brand itself you might be able to do a Facebook pagefor their mini coopers a for the cars they brand so current trying to think that thingswere different angle to attacked this particular topic mightbe a way to get around you know what kinda content should becreating which the content be about don't talk about that fox's itself manypeople employed in you know you sales figures talk aboutthe local area you know what's happening in Clapham right now where thefestival's wanna things affecting property prices intrying to turned into something that is useful andbeneficial for the customer i think is that the secret sauce for hitting a lot of information about social mediais in the business to consumer b2c sector I'll say case studies but what about b2b business to business what should business to businesscompanies be doing to improve their social media presence from was funny and %ah sacks I wasgiving a presentation to ADP which is company purveyed provides payroll services to large corporations aroundthe around the globe and it was a b2b session he was basing the kickofffor the sales staff and these are people that selling a verycomplicated product expensive product to very few very important clients and theyasked me how can you be leverage social media we know it's out there walking todo with it and now focus our discussion is reallyaround link then I think that's one way of thinking about social for b2b who are you clients whether theyexcesses it on Facebook visit on Twitter is it for example this case LinkedIn and thatwould probably be the ONS for a lot a b2b companies LinkedIn and what we talkedabout his how do you create a good profile onLinkedIn you know how cute we can how to improve it will have pictures you have have you talked about group you can joinhow you should interact with those groups how you should approach potentialprospects how you can leverage LinkedIn for prospecting et cetera you know when is it okay or not okay tomy people to connect with you and how should you do it's such a so there's a lot to be said unexploredaround that particular space is very much a one to one kind have bases you know ATP wanted to empower thesales people to do this more efficiently to the big question is how can we thencome how can a scale that I can do this on a more industrial level I think really goodexample there met with Autodesk I was in San Franciscofew months ago and or two that's provides I'm veryadvanced software for engineers and architects have to to decide on tall buildings andthey were struggling wat servicing their its customers in thecustomer service center because they have uses all over the world multiplelanguages obviously but they also have a very complicated questions cuz you canimagine the kind of problems they would stumble across this not dodges restart your software like maybewe as consumers can get away with doing we have problems I'm and they were just struggling tohandle the core sufficiently other complaints efficiently or those asking the questions efficiently becausethey couldn't employ enough intelligent customer salesrepresentatives to to to match the customer expectations they said you know we have all theseclever uses what are we connecting with the each other so they open up the forumsenable architects from all over the world toconnect with other architects an awesome the questions on the form and what it is wasintroduced act customer service number of coursecoming to customer service they could produced of the saving moneyand cousins getting help quicker and they were making you knowprobably want to use for connections along the way in terms of networking says her company they were inneighboring people to be doing your mind job more efficiently but also getting some other sidebenefits either so those a two examples of how b2b can work and howit should work by a definite is one of those areas thatboo spent a lot of time focus going forward kinda really nailing how do you scalethis howdy replicate the b2c kind experience for our b2b environmentbecause and then the day we might be a buyer seller of corporateproducts in the day but in the evening we gonna still be looking onto ourpersonal so social channels and so we have a private life alongside ourkinda corporate identity so I think the the gap will not be thattremendous but you mention the influence the peoplethat have over others I was reading the other day about shadow networks which essentially all on the people whom you may not beable to connect to online all within your own social medianetworks in other words the people you meet ifyou like in real life you my eyes to communicate to them communicate with them will discuss stuffwith them online this is a a an important aspect have fun customer service was also if you givesomeone good customer service and they gonna go offline and tell their friendsabout it what are your thoughts on how companiescan actually specifically improve the way they serve its customers withregards to social media what so things can actually do well i think is a business you probablychoose to level love engagement that is suitable for for your for your sizein a good example is Sam Best Buy America this is an old casestudy but they have something called up 12 47 on this remember that which basically allows every customerservice reps interval sales person working one of the many sub Best Buy said Hi Fi or technology deal dealership or retailers post andthey have a a lot not a knowledgeable peopleadvising customers about what to buy and you know processor speeds or whatever questionspeople have about different cameras or phones or whatever the promise you have to go into one ofthe shops to get that level customer service but what happened normally in a normalday customer service agents will be kind of working on a shocking really somethinganyone so they created this virtual equivalent ove this online call the 12 force where the invite customers to tweet aquestion like which camera is better this one about one and whichevercustomer service rep center for sales clerk is available it's not just standing around not doinganything with and can jump on that intercept that question and answer themas if they had been in the actual shop I think and that works really well forthem it's been a case the defeated in La to defend situations just to kind of show how youcan make your cell stuff work more efficiently how you can give yourcustomers better access to such a was quite a grand initiative quite a bigFA obviously you would have to train everyone and you would have to come to justify statsquite a bit large pizza work at News International for example have acustomer service that's that would Hannah questions or queries regardingthe time Sunday Times and The Sun and they have one customer serviceagents specialize on monitoring social channels andhandling questions they have fewer peopleengaging in social chance because it's not been ask advertise in terms of a customerservice so they can get away with doing on a verysmall scale so whatever seems to be right for yourbusiness is obvious the way you should try to position in their own also toolsthat enable see asset customer service rep to monitor what'sgoing on a more recent example was 02 the had a problem in the UK /a a fewmonths ago with a network outage show phones in operates the people weremoaning complaining on Twitter I'm but the way they got respond over Twitter was impressive and peoplewere saying you know this a great customer service et cetera something and they were not speciallytrained as such is doing the normal job did not handle a crisis have this magnitude but the is sorta told that assaway and this is we don't know what's going on with trying will tell you soonas we know it such a for their engaging a one to one with allthe customers and it was good went down really well this is a good example havecustomer service can work should work unsocial even invery difficult times like a like problem with the network of coursewith more people talking to each other online particular your customers this whole issue I've when somethinggoes wrong now love large brands are dealing with this on a day-to-day basismaybe small complaints and so on but occasion of course something reallyserious comes along what should companies be doing to if youlike prepare for these problems for to half for acrisis what steps should they be taking what should they be putting in place yeah well I think number one thing isthat you have a customer service that's plugged into social media so they'realways monitoring the conversation that's the number one thing and then going back to original questionabout training you know all this you need to quit your and empower your staff to respondhow to respond you know was sufficiently at to what point how far are we allowed to what kinda benefit all kinda servicescan be provided you can offer refunds can we offercompensation your the needs to be clean up front you knowwhether them and the limits although the customerservice agents that I've abilities to compensate there and thenon the spot I'm I think that needs to be kinda thoughtout well in advance and there's no reason no harm in not trying toreplicate a scenario like this you can kinda illustrate almost like a war type scenario we practice you knowwhat if this would happen what if we would be attacked with with we would have a problem to trying torecreate this and there is a kind of see how you would respond how he wouldmobilize is another good way I think of of getting around it but and as always Ithink is always difficult to predict when these things were kinda happen andso we can do is be as prepared as we possibly can and then deal with it when it happens I sooo much a shot at aday that's talking about the number of social crisis owe them a crisis thatbeing amplified through social media and that number is this going %uhpin-ups every year the chances of your company being a victim or sort of stuck in a sort ofWebDAV negative feedback and social space maybe more likely to happen so the other side is accorded courses somebuilding advocacy and influence and to gain some businesses alsostarting out the process what should businesses and brands bedoing to if you like increase the advocacy andinfluence that they have in terms of social media what stepsshould they take to do that i think is important tounderstand who is engaging with your and you can see who is following you onTwitter who is liking you are on Facebook for example and we can do CCwho are these people are are are between our messages work talking aboutus who are mentioning us and what their relative kinda influenceyou have a 15 followers 0 150 forrest et cetera and one way andone example was a great case that i think is as an American online close retailer and they want fashionbloggers is not a fashion bloggers out there to to write about them and they didn'tknow how do we get them to write about us well turns out the fashion bloggers havea problem because they're so small they don't get access to have catwalk show so they're not invitedto go tubing parties or whatever they don't get toget samples sent home to that which is the benefit of a big retailer a bigpublisher they get access to answer the next andhave could line up close being produced by the certain brand so whatthey did is they serve recognize those issues and said hey guys gonna fly into our office inNew York you from my whenever your base in the world and we are going to have you selectwhatever clothes you wanted to get sent to you but you couldn't get sent to us is that because we are muchbigger we much more important to the supplier they will comply with yourrequest and will let you where those clothes andtake pictures with that cuz they have professional photographers joining these people had makeup artistso they gave the bloggers a chance almost be like a star for a day by giving them the things they so muchdesire but couldn't get access to and what happens is you have a fifty ahundred people experience in that for a day or two that kinda working group and squad official schedule being thensuspend back into the world and from all is different places aretalking about this brand retailer how great they are more how cool theyare and what they're doing for us I think the start small you knowidentify who are talking about you am what can you do for them what whatwhat what what K get them excited you know what can theynot do themselves see if you can you know with your notvalid for the largest size leverage your presses and give themsomething they couldn't do themselves i think thats a great way great case study and it'sraining I do that by a deafening gauge for them you know have something and deeper thanis an online conversation small businesses to do that as well yes restful something absolutely your Imean I that is local well into an Indianrestaurant comment on called this rain and I mention them in a blogpost great rest from I know is you shouldcheck it out mention them in a blog post and then the added me on this list in acouple months leading by me to come and taste the new many yes theget a bunch of people that first one reason or another loyal customers bloggers people havementioned them in the past online to come and try what's coming upand was a great way for me to connect with fellow food lovers and neighbors had met before they had aninterest in Indian food and and is a great way for them to getback to me because I got a chance got some free 3.

0 it but also got to trysome new exciting dishes all which hopefully will never see a menu but I felt privileged havinga chance to try it so I think that's a very small localbusiness doing something may proactive and you know then fly people and thenget big corporates response than wood products such a you know very inform on which was great the so much going on in social media atthe moment and of course in digital marketing generally that to alot of people want to know what's gonna happen next what's going tohappen is going forward ass face because I don't know how you feelabout how for the people that I'm friends on Facebook people fromuniversity but I'm here I don't see a magnet every day and theymay not share my interest anymore maybe I'm doing a sports that they are notdoing or maybe I'm traveling to South America whichthere may not be doing in we may not have that much in common butwe are friends yet so we're see happening is that more communities will be created aroundverticals so for example if your committed cyclist you were joinedequivalent of Facebook of a cyclist because they will be having things incommon with the people that you connected with or if you're traveling in a communityfor travelers in a special specific location I think we'll see more vertical astation if that's even a word I'm all the social channels I'mequivalent like cat EA fair Instagram is great for any kinda picture what about a photo app for or acommunity of or pictures 41 specific area of interest that capacityMarvin interest abt think and more along those lines but come moving away from the specificsoftware or the brando the product itself I think what's happening is that socialmedia will become a more integrated with other departments beyond marking that wetalked about in the beginning I think that we can see the most that I'veinnovation in time so how do you never social here for productdevelopment let's say you have a a newspaper you have a car a greatexample is sound Barclaycard in america they created theworld first socially created credit card I mean whowould think of such a thing as create a credit card using social well they did and theyprove that it worked and what they did they invited peoplethere were customers about the car to say hey we experiment in queens newproduct would you are you interested and they said you know some people signup I said yes and they said well this is how thefoundation a credit card is how much me to charges with interest would look like and the communes you can have impose inwhere they thought interest rate was too high or the annual fee was too low orwhatever concerning the benefits are getting forthe car the kind of socially curating created can have the terms andconditions of the car and not only that when the car waslaunched a could see how many have signed up for this card and they could see what's theoutstanding debt that Barclaycard is exposed to so they could understand address thecompass taking him and they could talk about whether or not they said be more risk-averse less risk averse tomake talk about whether the customer service should be in and america if it should be abroadbecause I would impact the boat that annual fee in and and this is still going reallywell I'm is early they sell but I mean that's to a one way of thinking of how product development clever social Ithink we'll see much more that going forward in Chris you know I met in Africa and Ibelieve it was at the for us conference in laos on digitalmarketing 10 things it was clear to both worse wasthat it was a population a very they wanted to get on board they wantedmore on access to the web and social media and things if you like that we take forgranted how do you think that's going to play out globally what do you think the challenges of 20things can happen yeah I mean I think what was happeningkind of kind countries where people have a a fastbroadband connection or maybe not even a PC at home the using the mobile phones much more toadopt social media then we are so you could argue that some a social mediachannel that can think a way to let people access to services quick n Easy on on amobile phone will come stand a better chance friend of mine he went to Brazil and hewas surprise but number people using force cram more people using forceGrande Brazil then in in the UK you know even per capitathey love the idea of sharing and broadcasting their presence andwhereabouts et cetera so the concept of social disorder aglobal in its nature and people want to be social wanna share and want to talkabout the doing said so that's going to happeneverywhere no matter what poco what the brand will be that might stillbe too might still yet to be decided to nothing depending on local players offeringinteresting tools et cetera so yeah it's is they're catching up andcatching up fast in this ass to get better but I'm phones bigger screens though or you knoweven more about connection is that broadband connections that have wifibecause already available they gonna you know be all over all goodthings device revelations 10 sings in new devices springing up allthe time and be seen to will be becoming multipledevice known as well as and gadgets everywhere talking in the future I am I'm when wemet you mentioned to me that you were writing another book and tell us aboutthat it's going to be published this spring23 2013 it's the sequel to the social media MBAI think on Amazon you can read the reviews and one thing that people keepmentioning is how much they liked the case that is I think they're a case thatis in the book yeah so taking that feedback on boardhave created book Wade nothing else but case studies backto back its about 20 case studies and they're telling the story of acompany's social media adaptation journey so from the beginning how do you createbuy in from the sea leadership team why should we spend time and effort and eventhinking about social you know and second okay we need to doour strategy what's the strategy look like a component city contain and each of these problems are all setwith a case that it so for example HondaEurope this is how we created by m-force oceana sachet or BarclaycardUS this is how we create a product leveraging social media or Eon you knowhow do you manage crisis or problems that customers might have had such a second everything that you possiblythink about having to deal with adopting social media will be covered inthe book through lands a different companies one thing that immediately springs tomind when you were talking about is and I often get asked what what's thepayoff with all the investments of time andeffort into social media calls a lot of brands and businesses companies and soon or looking at their hotel spend or toneinvestment what would you say to those companies ehow can that happen they measure it and and and monitoring and where does itcome from it's it's it's a not only topic thatgets rains all the time I'm sure you gocauses like I the you basically get off this all the timebye bye you know they're not even seeks the people on skewers well at the verysensible people so what would you say to someone's isproved to me that social media actually has a return yeah as he is areally good question and one would be must not be afraid to be confronted withespecially someone advocating SOC me don't you know working in marketing or whatever becausepeople will question why why a commuter manager why was spending time training people up using social mediamaybe that will distract them from doing their job whatever I heard and so now say that anotherabbreviation another way expanding our ally would be return on ignorance so yeslooking in our eyes is is critical how we can justifycontinued investment unless we have our backs covered in that sense and I think a good analogy would belooking back in the days when we were buying ads and print a newspaper or he adds even there's some there might there somescience to whether or not that's been effect for now it's still a bit I guess well the goodnews with that advertising and digital space is that you don't have to guess on what the return is going to be andthe you don't have to get our allies going to be socially it because you cantrack the customs journeys using free toolslike Google Analytics you can see you which half is coming from you can puttracking pixels on your checkout pages whatever it might be to come fun where this person is beenprior to this thing your page you can see the impact the direct correlation between trafficon your Facebook page commons and engagements and links to your website from Bloggerso whatever so never before has it been easier totrack return investment than today especiallysocialist fashion digital and and their loss and tools availableout there sa what I say is that you know pick at all do some googling in time so are awise ok API's others are you saying in and effective scene with that apply that to your business and see whatyou're able to track see would seems to make the most sense to for you to use because and then theday ass as CEOs and other senior executivesbecome more aware of the importance of us asocial presence and being accidents in that's a space they will beasking these hard questions you what's the return on investment more tomore than they have ever thought about doing in the past so we can do is beingproactive about it see what metrics this works for us andstart you know creating a spreadsheet of some sort of report we can show their relative effort to them itand it's creating Chris as ever has been great speak withyou and we must do it again sometime things the language thank you.

Source: Youtube